PodcastAdam Taggart | Thoughtful Money®Lance Roberts

Value Stocks Set To Outperform Tech Into The End Of Year? | Lance Roberts

Roberts sees strong nominal growth, oil-related inflation risk, and a roughly 1% term premium helping explain the 10-year yield near 5.3%, while arguing that rates are normalizing after years of monetary suppression. He highlights narrow equity-market breadth, tentative rotation beyond the largest stocks, and higher bond yields that offer income but could also draw capital away from equities. His outlook includes a probably strong fourth quarter, differing views on the direction of yields, and a longer-term case for bonds to outperform during a secular bear market.

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Key Takeaways

Roberts distinguishes two election-related historical patterns: 16 of the previous 19 midterm years were positive from October through year-end, and 12-month S&P returns after midterms were historically positive across government combinations, but he says a Republican president with Democratic control of both chambers had the lowest historical S&P return among the configurations discussed. He attributes the latter comparison to policy averages, including the potential effects of higher taxes and more restrictive regulation, and cautions that historical averages do not guarantee current returns.

Roberts links the 10-year Treasury yield near 5.3% to inflation risk from oil, near-4% growth estimated by the Atlanta Fed, real yields, fundamentals, and a roughly 1% term premium. The yield outlook is divided: Chris Wayland sees normalization higher and says yields could reach 7% to 8% over the long term, while Roberts says RAA expects yields to trend down over the next couple of years.

Roberts says current capex spending may end within two years, potentially making weakness in the real economy more apparent, and argues that debt and deficits can erode activity and growth over time. The speakers also say a more rational cost of capital can clear out malinvestment but may involve disinflationary or deflationary periods; Roberts describes rates as normalizing after years of suppressed borrowing costs.

Roberts says market-cap-weighted S&P 500 and Nasdaq indexes reached all-time highs after recovering from a 10% correction, even as the market had largely gone nowhere over six months and the equal-weighted index showed a different picture. He also describes an early, not yet major, rotation toward developed and international markets, small-cap value, financials, industrials, and utilities, while noting that higher rates pressure small- and mid-cap companies with weaker cash flows or refinancing needs.

Roberts describes a contrast between fearful sentiment— the CNN Fear & Greed Index was in fear and retail investors were mostly sidelined—and corporate guidance, with 72 companies raising guidance versus 44 at or below prior levels, a record number raising guidance. Credit indicators were also mixed: spreads had widened among the lowest-rated C and double-C debt, but Roberts said broader spreads were not showing comparable stress.

Roberts says strong demand, including from foreign buyers, appeared at 10-year and 30-year Treasury auctions, with buyers potentially seeking to lock in current yields. He says bonds now provide 53% of the return investors need to reach their goals, compared with about 12% three years earlier, but cautions that a 5% Treasury yield does not account for inflation and that equities can help adjust a portfolio for inflation over time.

GEO-POLITICS

Election Returns — Roberts says then-current polling suggested Democrats could control the House and Senate under a Republican president. Of the government configurations discussed, he says this combination had the lowest historical S&P return, based on policy averages. He says higher taxes and tighter market regulation under Democratic congressional control could weigh on returns.

“Right now, it's shaping up that Democrats will take the House and the Senate, and you'll have a Republican president, which is the lowest expected rate of return out of…”—

ECONOMY

Treasury Yield Drivers — Roberts links Treasury yields to oil-related inflation risk and strong nominal growth, citing the Atlanta Fed's estimate of near-4% growth. He says inflation, real yields, fundamentals, and a roughly 1% term premium help explain why the 10-year yield is near 5.3%.

“And right now we still have this inflation, you know, kind of risk at the moment from oil prices which is feeding into interest rates…”—

Capex And Disinflation — Roberts says the current capex spending will end within two years, after which weakness in the real economy may become more apparent. He argues that debt and deficits are disinflationary over time because they erode economic activity and growth. He says rates have been normalizing after the period of QE and zero interest rates.

“So you know, once that capex spending ends, and that will end in the next two years, then the real economy is going to come under that…”—

Cost Of Capital — The speakers argue that a more rational cost of capital can clear out malinvestment and force better decisions. That adjustment may involve disinflationary or deflationary periods.

“but now as we're coming back to a more rational cost of capital, again, it sort of clears out the malinvestment, it forces decision makers to make smarter decisions, but…”—

MARKETS

Narrow Market Breadth — Roberts says the market-cap-weighted S&P 500 and Nasdaq reached all-time highs after recovering from a 10% correction. Yet the market had largely gone nowhere over six months, and the equal-weighted index showed a different picture. He says the S&P's 20- and 50-day moving averages were converging as support, which the index tested before rebounding.

“If you struck out these four days, the markets would be flat for the last six months, right? We've just really kind of gone nowhere…”—

Early Sector Rotation — Roberts says developed and international markets and small-cap value had begun to gain traction. Financials, industrials, and utilities also showed tentative turns after interest rates rose. He emphasizes that the rotation was early and had not become a major shift.

“That's semiconductors, that's tech stocks, etc…”—

Midterm Returns — Roberts says 16 of the previous 19 midterm-election years were positive from October through year-end, while three were negative. Separately, he says S&P returns over the 12 months after midterm elections have historically been positive across government combinations. He cautions that historical averages do not guarantee a positive return this year.

“that that means some years were a lot some midterm years were some years are a lot weaker and we could certainly have a negative return year between now and…”—

FORECASTS

Fourth-Quarter Returns — Roberts says the fourth quarter would probably be fairly strong for markets, citing an average return of about 6% in the report's historical analysis.

“Last weekend's bull bear report laid out why the fourth quarter of the year will probably be fairly strong for the markets on average about a six% rate of return.”—

Oil And Rate-Sensitive Sectors — Roberts says oil falling to around $80 could ease inflation pressure and pull yields lower, potentially prompting a rotation into rate-sensitive sectors such as REITs and utilities. He describes this as a potential trade setup, not necessarily a long-term holding.

“That's probably going to come from a drop in oil prices for whatever reason…”—

Conflicting Yield Views — Banking analyst Chris Wayland sees yields normalizing higher, says they could reach 7% to 8% over the long term, and would sell into a possible short-term bond rally. Roberts says RAA instead expects yields to trend downward over the next couple of years.

“and I just did an interview with banking analyst Chris Wayland, who basically said, look, yeah, I mean, in the short term, anything can happen and there might be a…”—

Thoughtful Money Fall Conference promo (speakers & details)

Adam promotes the upcoming Thoughtful Money Fall Conference, highlighting Neil Howe, Lacy Hunt, and a broad lineup covering markets, bonds, AI, commodities, real estate, and geopolitics.

Market recap: weakness under the surface & ongoing divergences

Lance says weakness continues beneath the headline indexes, with crowded mega-cap growth cooling while international markets, small-cap value, and rate-sensitive sectors show tentative improvement.

Factor rotation (growth/mega-cap vs value/small-cap) & Q4 portfolio rebalance

Lance describes rebalancing portfolios from growth toward value ahead of Q4, positioning for a possible broader rotation while acknowledging that early signs are not yet a confirmed trend.

Technical analysis: market-cap vs equal-weight indices & early sector turns

Market-cap-weighted indexes remain near highs, but equal-weight and small-cap measures show a different picture; Lance points to early turns in financials, industrials, and utilities.

Historical Q4 returns in midterm years (averages & caveats)

Historical midterm-year data favor a strong Q4 in the specified market setup, but Lance stresses that averages are uncertain and cites sentiment, liquidity, buybacks, and earnings as supports.

Midterm election scenarios & expected S&P returns by government configuration

Lance reviews historical S&P returns under different election outcomes, with divided government generally strongest and a Democratic Congress alongside a Republican president historically weakest.

Bond yields update (around 5–5.3%) & strong recent auctions

Ten- and thirty-year Treasury auctions drew strong demand as yields stayed near 5–5.3%; Lance links the 10-year yield to firm nominal growth, oil-driven inflation risk, and a roughly 1% term premium.

Contrasting views on the long-term direction of yields

Adam contrasts forecasts of persistently rising yields with Lance’s view that rates are normalizing and likely to decline over the next few years as high rates restrain growth.

Is now the time to lock in higher yields / add bonds?

Lance says adding bonds depends on portfolio needs: income, lower volatility, and principal repayment, with current yields offering more dependable return potential than during the low-rate period.

The only three reasons to own bonds (income, lower volatility, principal return)

Lance explains rebalancing by restoring target allocations after equities outperform, using bond income for portfolio goals while retaining equities to help offset inflation over time.

Portfolio rebalancing mechanics with equities & bonds

Lance argues that bonds should be understood through yield to maturity and principal repayment, not interim price moves, and cautions against treating bond ETFs as maturity-held bonds.

Long-term 10-year Treasury chart, rate peaks & debts/deficits as disinflationary

A long-term Treasury chart shows rates have normalized from unusually suppressed levels; Lance sees high rates as economically restrictive and debt and deficits as disinflationary over time.

Strategy for the next major downturn (bonds then equities; 2008 parallel)

Lance outlines a downturn strategy based on moving toward Treasuries during a selloff, then shifting toward equities and other discounted assets once recession risks and rate declines are largely priced in.

Credit spreads update (mostly contained; junk-rated showing some widening)

Credit deterioration is concentrated in the weakest C-rated debt, while investment-grade and most other spreads remain contained; Lance says a broader spread surge would be a warning for equities.

High-yield debt risk vs equity risk in the same companies

Adam notes that investors may reject risky high-yield debt while buying equity in the same companies, even though equity holders face greater risk and lower priority in bankruptcy.

Positive effects of higher yields (clearing malinvestment, better real returns for savers)

The speakers discuss higher yields as a corrective force that can curb malinvestment, improve returns for savers, and eventually make housing and other assets more affordable.

TINA is dead — capital shifting toward bonds

Lance says TINA has ended as bonds again offer an alternative to equities, though sustained or accelerating bond inflows could pull capital from stock markets.

Record equity allocations & the case for normalizing risk in later-life portfolios

Adam argues that record equity exposure, especially among older investors, reflects years of suppressed yields; Lance agrees that portfolios may need more normal risk levels.

Municipal bonds introduction (tax advantages & state considerations)

Adam introduces municipal bonds as a way to earn potentially tax-advantaged income, with benefits depending on federal and state tax circumstances and the project’s credit risk.

Tax-equivalent yield, taxable vs tax-free munis & account placement

Lance emphasizes comparing municipal bonds by tax-equivalent yield rather than coupon, distinguishing taxable from tax-free issues, and holding tax-free munis in taxable accounts.

Selecting munis (revenue bonds, insured, avoiding certain GO/hospital risks)

Lance favors carefully selected revenue-backed or insured municipal bonds over riskier general-obligation or hospital debt, while stressing that state tax rules and credit quality matter.

Practical access: why larger buyers/advisors often get better munis

Lance says municipal bonds can be difficult for individual investors to source; larger advisory buyers may access better inventory and pricing, making expert help useful.

Recent portfolio trades (tax-loss harvesting, value adds, Berkshire, financials, utilities)

Lance reports taking profits in technology holdings, harvesting tax losses, and adding Berkshire Hathaway, financials, and utilities as part of portfolio rebalancing toward value.

Closing personal rant: not forcing outcomes (Gentleman’s Olympics & life lessons)

Adam and Lance reflect on the Gentleman’s Olympics and personal examples to argue that when effort becomes counterproductive, changing approach and releasing control can open better outcomes.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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