PodcastThe Real Investment ShowLance Roberts

9-24 26 Will the Next Trade Be Bonds?

The discussion argues that higher rates are pressuring corporate profits, consumer demand, and smaller companies while also restoring fixed income as a credible alternative to equities. Market signals remain mixed: inflation measures show limited long-term concern, but breadth is weakening, small caps are oversold, and bond-market stress is spreading globally. The speakers see possible later opportunities in small caps and further equity-to-bond rebalancing, while an 8% 10-year Treasury yield could trigger a severe recession and a 40% to 70% stock-market decline.

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Key Takeaways

The normalization of interest rates after the unusually suppressed 2008–2021 period is raising refinancing costs for companies that borrowed at 2%–3% and may now face rates of 5%–7%, putting pressure on margins, hiring, capital expenditures, and consumer demand. Small- and mid-cap stocks are especially exposed because they are more sensitive to economic activity and borrowing costs, helping explain their recent weakness relative to large technology companies.

The speakers described high rates as potentially self-correcting: weaker demand could produce disinflation or deflation, eventually pressuring rates lower. This view contrasts renewed price pressure in manufacturing indexes, partly tied to higher oil prices and capital spending, with five-year breakeven inflation near 2.30%–2.35%; if inflation fell toward 1%–2% or growth weakened materially, bonds could rally as investors sought lower yields.

Fixed income has become a more credible alternative to equities now that roughly 84% of fixed-income assets yield above 4% and five-year Treasuries offer about 5%, versus long-run equity returns near 8%. The speakers expect higher yields could encourage gradual equity-to-bond rebalancing, while their credit preference favors higher-quality double-A bonds that may add roughly 20–40 basis points over Treasuries without relying on lower-rated debt.

TECHNOLOGY

Competition Expands — Strong demand and market success attract new competitors, as seen in semiconductors and expected eventually in AI. Additional AI players beyond OpenAI and Anthropic could erode incumbent advantages over time.

“But to your point, Mike, is that once that caught on everybody and this is the this is the interesting thing about this, Mike, this is the same story with…”—

ECONOMY

Higher Rates Pressure Profits — Higher interest rates are squeezing corporate profit margins, earnings, and consumer demand, with small-, mid-, and micro-cap companies particularly exposed. Companies that borrowed at 2% to 3% may face refinancing costs of 5% to 7% as debt matures, potentially prompting layoffs, capital-expenditure cuts, and other cost reductions.

“that's impacting the rest of the market that's much more susceptible to higher rates impacting their corporate profit margins impacting earnings, slower consumer spending because higher interest rates are now…”—

Rate Normalization — The 2008–2021 period of suppressed interest rates was abnormal, and rates have since normalized following Federal Reserve tightening. Before 2008, roughly 60% of fixed-income assets yielded above 4%, but that share fell to about 20%; since 2022, it has risen to 84%. Higher rates increase borrowing costs while supporting stronger wage growth in a growing economy.

“Notice in the chart from 2000 to 2008 roughly you know kind of say on average about 60% of all assets were yielding above 4%…”—

MARKETS

Mixed Inflation Signals — S&P Global manufacturing indexes showed renewed price pressure, partly reflecting higher oil prices and capital-expenditure spending. Interest rates rose and the inflation trade briefly strengthened, but five-year breakeven inflation remained around 2.30%–2.35%, suggesting markets were not pricing a major increase in future inflation.

“Nobody normally pays attention to those. They don't normally make a lot of headlines. Yesterday they did because they showed an uptick in price pressures…”—

Market Consolidation — The market has remained in a consolidation range for roughly three months and has fallen back below its 20-day moving average. The attempted move toward new highs therefore has not produced a sustained breakout.

“As we discussed yesterday, the market just remains trapped within this consolidation range…”—

Small-Cap Vulnerability — Small-cap stocks are especially sensitive to economic activity and higher interest rates, contributing to their recent weakness. They were approaching the 200-day moving average and showing extremely oversold momentum conditions, creating the possibility of a later trading opportunity.

“Remember last year small cap stocks were all the all the talks like small caps are outperforming and you know we got to all be in small caps now…”—

FORECASTS

Small-Cap Setup — The speakers said a decent trade may develop in smaller-cap companies later in the year, after the near-term period passes. The opportunity would depend partly on interest rates and broader economic weakness.

“And we're now again approaching, you know, at least decent support for small cap…”—

Equity-Bond Rebalancing — As bond yields rise, investors may gradually shift allocations from equities into bonds, such as moving from an 80/20 mix to 70/30. The speaker expects more of this rebalancing if yields continue higher.

“But you know at some point you know I think investors are going to slowly start switching from equities to bonds at least rebalancing their portfolio…”—

INTRO

The show opens with the hosts discussing higher input costs in the S&P Global Manufacturing Index and explaining why oil and capital spending are pushing prices higher.

S&P Global Manufacturing Index showing rising costs

September weakness continues as the S&P 500 remains trapped in consolidation, while value, staples, and healthcare outperform growth and major indexes struggle to establish new highs.

Market is doing what September Markets do

Dollar strength has accelerated after an oversold period, pressuring gold and other commodities through their inverse relationship with the currency.

The Dollar is on a tear

The hosts compare Starbucks' store closures with semiconductor and artificial-intelligence competition, arguing that successful markets inevitably attract rivals and reduce incumbent advantages.

Coffee & Semi-Conductors

S&P Global's inflation reading was not new, but the bond selloff appeared disproportionate, suggesting a technical liquidation or foreign selling event rather than changed inflation expectations.

S&P Global Manufacturing Index - Market over-reaction to nothing new

The speakers describe a possible capitulation phase in yields, with abrupt bond selling occurring despite limited evidence of a fundamental inflation shock.

Capitulation Event for Yields

The five-year Treasury auction was weak relative to expectations but still attracted substantial demand, making it poor rather than genuinely failed.

5-Year Bond Auction - Failed or Poor?

A truly failed auction would mean insufficient buyers and create a severe market shock, while Treasury officials and primary dealers would likely intervene before that occurred.

Why We Bought 5-year Treasuries

The hosts explain why their portfolios bought five-year Treasuries, shortening duration, raising coupon income, and realizing a tax loss while preserving diversified bond exposure.

The TINA Trade vs the TIGA Trade

Fixed-income yields above four percent have returned broadly, ending the post-2008 TINA environment and creating a credible alternative to equities and cash.

How We Build Bond Portfolios - ETF's vs Individual Bonds

Investors must adjust to normalized rates, where Treasuries provide meaningful income and safety at maturity even though their market prices fluctuate during ownership.

If Bonds Get Crushed

The TIGA framework reflects a market where five-percent bonds compete with richly valued stocks, encouraging gradual equity-to-bond rebalancing as rates rise.

Rooting for Gloom & Doom

The firm builds bond portfolios with Treasuries, individual high-quality corporate bonds, and ETFs, emphasizing credit quality, maturity diversification, and selective extra yield.

The Great Bond Massacre of 1068

Higher refinancing costs threaten companies facing a debt-maturity wall, potentially reducing hiring and capital spending while eventually forcing rates lower through weaker economic demand.

Fear in the Bond Market is Starting to Spread

Bond-market fear is spreading globally, but extreme yields would trigger recession, falling inflation, major stock losses, and renewed demand for bonds rather than an endless rate spiral.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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