PodcastAdam Taggart | Thoughtful Money®Lance Roberts

"If You're Worried About A Bear Market, Buy Bonds Now" | Lance Roberts

The discussion weighs the limits of monetary policy against its costs for consumers, alongside concerns about inflation, weak hiring, household drawdowns, and fiscal discipline. Lance Roberts argues that large-cap earnings have been buffered by low borrowing costs, while smaller companies face greater rate pressure; he also sees bonds as a source of income and potential portfolio protection. He expects markets could rise through year-end, but says elevated valuations may constrain stock returns over the next decade relative to current Treasury yields.

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Key Takeaways

The host says compute capacity—supported by electricity production, data centers, and chips—could give countries a substantial advantage in the US-China AI competition, while the speakers describe access to computing resources as a potential policy lever for the US and China. That strategic importance does not settle the investment case: one speaker says AI returns over the next couple of years remain uncertain, with some potentially taking 15 or 20 years to materialize.

The speakers frame fiscal policy as a trade-off between monetary discipline and economic flexibility: one argues that the Fed should refuse to monetize debt to pressure Congress to control spending, while another says limiting M2 growth under a gold standard would impede growth. Lance Roberts offers a different route to making debt productive, arguing that a government-utility partnership to rebuild the grid could employ people and generate revenue while users pay for power over time.

Lance Roberts argues that rate hikes cannot directly reduce oil prices and may instead weaken demand, while he says downward PCE revisions to a 1.6% average suggest the Fed may be making a mistake by hiking rates. He warns that raising rates during an oil spike could add pressure on consumers, and says the Fed may hold at its next meeting—particularly if oil prices are falling—to assess the prior hike.

Roberts describes a strained consumer backdrop: companies are retaining workers but hiring cautiously, while weak job creation can weigh on spending; the 0.9% rise in retail sales was primarily driven by gasoline prices, which leave less income for other purchases. He says households are also drawing on savings and investment assets, with a savings rate around 3.8%, and distinguishes disinflation from falling prices, noting that consumer prices remain about 29% above 2020 levels.

Lance Roberts links Germany's energy choices and dependence on Russian gas to economic harm, and says limited AI investment could leave European countries behind. He also argues that limited investment in some European economies could mean slower future growth and earnings, while emerging markets' reliance on US consumption informs his stated preference to underweight international markets.

GEO-POLITICS

Compute Leverage — The speakers suggest compute could become a powerful policy lever if the US and China are the main providers and other countries depend on them. They raise conditioning access to computing resources on trade or military support as a possibility, not a settled outcome.

“You know, we don't give them our best chips right?…”—

TECHNOLOGY

AI Competition — The host argues that the US-China AI race is not necessarily winner-take-all, but that countries with more compute and better technology could gain a substantial advantage. He points to electrical production capacity, data centers, and chips as factors in the competition.

“it's not necessarily a winner take all game. You know you could have an emergence of two AI superpowers…”—

ECONOMY

Fiscal Discipline — The speaker argues that fiscal discipline is essential to addressing debt and preserving the dollar's purchasing power, while acknowledging that the outcome depends on changes in Washington. The proposed mechanism is for the Fed to refuse to monetize the debt, pressuring Congress to control spending.

“he does retain some optimism that u there may be a way to address these issues dealing with the debt reducing the amount of diminishment of purchasing power of the…”—

Rate Hikes — Lance Roberts argues that Fed rate hikes cannot directly lower oil prices, but can raise consumer borrowing costs, weaken demand, and push the economy toward recession. In his account, that demand contraction can bring interest rates and inflation down, at the cost of making life more difficult for consumers.

“The Fed can't do anything about oil prices. They can't do anything about, you know, data center spending to any great degree feeding into ISM or manufacturing…”—

Grid Investment — Lance Roberts argues that a government-utility public-private partnership to rebuild the power grid could make debt productive. The work would employ people and generate revenue, while users would pay for power over time.

“We're going to go into a public private partnership with utility companies to rebuild our power grid across the nation. That's productive investment…”—

MARKETS

Investor Optimism — Lance Roberts argues that pessimistic investors underperform optimistic investors, citing studies and the claim that markets are up 75% of the time. He says persistent bearishness can keep investors from participating in market opportunities.

“And this is the big mistake that most investors make is they have this very pessimistic bearish binge that keeps them from investing…”—

International Exposure — Lance Roberts says emerging markets depend heavily on US consumption and argues that limited investment in some European economies could mean slower future growth and earnings. He favors underweighting international markets, while noting that his firm still has an international portfolio.

“They're very dependent on emerging markets in particular are very dependent on the US for consumption, right? They're an exporter. We're an importer…”—

Large-Cap Resilience — Lance Roberts says the market-cap-weighted S&P 500 is supported by its largest companies, which refinanced debt in 2020 when the 10-year Treasury yield was around 0.5%. Their low debt-servicing costs and near-record interest-cost coverage have insulated earnings from higher rates, he says, while the headline index can obscure weakness elsewhere.

“So this is just basically so this is the S&P right here, right? Sitting right here at all-time highs. the Nasdaq actually is setting all-time highs today…”—

FORECASTS

Year-End Outlook — Lance Roberts expects the market's next move could be higher through year-end, citing potential election gridlock, returning buybacks, earnings, and liquidity. He adds that the S&P could rise less than small caps and midcaps.

“So, you get gridlock, no policy gets done. Wall Street loves that. That gives you a boost to the markets. You've got buybacks boosting the markets…”—

Bond Yield Outlook — Lance Roberts agrees that bond yields could come down over the next year or two. Under that scenario, investors who lock in current higher real yields could also benefit from bond-price appreciation.

“So you want to try to lock in these higher real yields while you can get them…”—

Fiscal Discipline And Debt

The hosts debate whether Washington can rein in deficits, how fiscal restraint might affect growth, and why productive public investment could make debt more sustainable.

Debt, Growth, And AI Investment

Roberts says debt should be judged relative to economic output and distinguishes productive investment, such as expanding the power grid, from spending that does not build future capacity.

AI Race And Global Markets

The hosts weigh uncertain AI returns and the strategic US-China competition, while Roberts argues that weak investment and slower growth may leave Europe and other international markets behind.

Gold Standard Debate

Taggart connects monetary expansion to the end of gold backing, while Roberts notes that although gold can constrain spending, it also limits the money supply needed for economic growth.

Payroll Revisions And Inflation

Roberts says revised inflation data and persistently weak hiring suggest the Fed may be tightening unnecessarily, particularly if oil prices ease and household finances remain pressured.

Hiring Weakness And Consumers

Roberts describes labor hoarding, limited job creation, and consumers drawing on accumulated assets to sustain spending, creating risks even as business surveys and GDP revisions look stronger.

Treasury Yields And Market Breadth

Roberts explains that megacap firms remain insulated by cheap legacy debt, while higher rates weigh more heavily on small caps, equal-weight stocks, and other market sectors.

Q4 Rotation And Market Outlook

Roberts expects markets to rise into year-end, supported by earnings, buybacks, liquidity, and possible political gridlock, with beaten-down sectors potentially outperforming technology.

Portfolio Rebalancing And Bonds

Roberts outlines plans to use elevated Treasury yields, adjust bond duration, harvest tax losses, and shift equity exposure from growth toward value.

Why Bonds Belong In Portfolios

Roberts argues that bonds provide income and capital preservation, helping investors meet return goals with less equity exposure even when bond prices fluctuate.

Valuations Versus Treasury Yields

With elevated stock valuations implying modest long-term returns, Roberts sees five-percent Treasury yields as attractive and says investors should focus on income rather than daily price moves.

Individual Bonds And Duration

Roberts distinguishes owning individual bonds to maturity from trading bond funds, emphasizing that investors should match bond duration to when they need their money.

Fixed Income And Yield Outlook

The hosts discuss strong flows into fixed income as a signal of bond appeal, while Roberts explains how growth, inflation, real yields, and term premium contribute to Treasury yields.

Bonds As Bear Market Protection

Roberts says unusually high yields may eventually pressure the economy and argues bonds can cushion portfolio losses, making them especially relevant to investors worried about a bear market.

Municipal Bonds And Taxes

Taggart considers tax-exempt municipal bonds, and Roberts clarifies how state-specific bonds can provide state tax exemptions alongside federal tax advantages.

Year-End Planning And Closing

Roberts previews an upcoming portfolio rebalance, and the hosts promote their conference and urge viewers to plan tax-loss harvesting, required distributions, and other year-end decisions early.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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