PodcastThe Wolf Of All StreetsJordi Visser

Bitcoin’s Next BIG Move Could Be Decided In The Next 48 Hours | Jordi Visser & Jim Bianco

The discussion examines AI’s infrastructure race, regulatory risks, and potential impact on business valuations, with higher rates not expected to halt spending by Anthropic and OpenAI. It also focuses on persistent inflation, oil-driven supply pressures, Federal Reserve policy, and the risk that fiscal constraints could produce financial repression. Bitcoin is presented as both vulnerable to a crypto-sector purge and potentially supported by broader tokenization, blockchain-based financial guardrails, and adoption outside wealthy financial centers.

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Key Takeaways

Higher rates are not expected to halt the AI infrastructure buildout because Anthropic and OpenAI reportedly have very high margins, but Anthropic is trailing OpenAI in compute and may need IPO capital to fund the gap. OpenAI systems were described as using 100,000 GPUs, with its next model expected to use 400,000.

The speakers argue that pausing AI development would not stop the infrastructure race because China is unlikely to slow down, favoring private-sector involvement in AI safety instead. At the same time, Anthropic’s potential IPO could require greater disclosure of risks, including potentially enormous product liability from AI-enabled attacks on critical infrastructure.

One speaker expects AI to disrupt every business over the next five years by changing growth rates and making some software companies difficult to value beyond a three-year horizon. That risk is concentrated in the market: 41 AI-related S&P 500 stocks represent about 48% of the index’s market capitalization, leaving the other 459 stocks capable of moving in the opposite direction.

The diesel market is being squeezed by reduced refining aimed at producing more gasoline, Russia’s lost refining capacity, and halted exports, pushing Europe toward U.S. supplies and higher prices. The speakers argue that rate hikes cannot quickly resolve an oil-driven supply shock because higher energy costs restrain spending while higher borrowing costs increase federal interest expense and the deficit.

Prediction markets were assigning an 80% to 90% probability to a Federal Reserve rate hike, and the speakers said probabilities at those levels have historically tended to precede a hike. One speaker argues that a 6% nominal-growth economy warrants rates near 6%, beginning with at least a 5% handle, while the 10-year yield’s rise from 3.60% to roughly 4.98% during Fed easing illustrates the market’s independent pressure on long-term borrowing costs.

TECHNOLOGY

AI Investment — Higher rates are not expected to stop AI progress or the infrastructure buildout because Anthropic and OpenAI have very high margins. Weaker balance sheets would bear more of the impact.

“The margins for anthropic and for open AI are at 80%. If you raise 200 basis points on tenure yields, it doesn't change their margins at all at all…”—

AI Safety — The speakers argue that pausing AI development would not stop the infrastructure race because China is unlikely to slow down. They favor private-sector involvement in AI safety and warn that some regulatory arguments may reflect hyperbole or regulatory capture.

“The problem is China's not going to slow down. So you're at this side of if you pause it, what is that going to accomplish?…”—

Anthropic IPO — Anthropic’s potential IPO may require greater disclosure of AI-related risks and may not achieve the previously discussed $3 trillion valuation. The speakers identify potentially enormous product liability from AI-enabled attacks on critical infrastructure.

“So, if they do do it, I don't think they're going to get the $3 trillion valuation they thought…”—

ECONOMY

Diesel Shortage — Pressure on refiners to produce more gasoline before the election reduced diesel production. Russia’s loss of refining capacity and halted exports pushed Europe toward U.S. diesel supplies and higher prices.

“The Trump administration about two or three months ago leaned on the refiners to produce more gasoline because we want to keep the price of gasoline down before the election…”—

Fed Hike Odds — Prediction markets assigned an 80% to 90% probability to a Federal Reserve rate hike. The speakers argued that probabilities at that level have historically tended to precede a hike.

“We got a bond auction, we got retail sales, but I think the big one is there is number three, Fed interest rate decision on Wednesday…”—

Oil Shock Limits — The speakers argue that raising rates cannot quickly solve an oil-driven supply shock. Higher energy costs restrain spending, while higher borrowing costs increase federal interest expense and the deficit. A 25-basis-point hike could instead be presented as insurance against future inflation.

“What is obvious is that raising rates to try to contract, you know, to try to deal with an oil spike is the height of foolishness because if anything, it's…”—

MARKETS

Yield Divergence — The 10-year Treasury yield rose from 3.60% to roughly 4.98% while the Fed was cutting rates—a 130-basis-point increase that one speaker described as historically unusual. The speakers also said rates around 4.5% to 5% have coincided with major asset-price growth periods.

“September 18th, 2024, almost two years ago, is when they first started cutting rates. The 10-year yield at that point was 360. Today, it's 499, 498…”—

AI Concentration — Forty-one AI-related S&P 500 stocks represented about 48% of the index’s market capitalization, while the other 459 represented about 52% and could move in the opposite direction. The speakers compared this concentration with railroad stocks’ nearly 70% share around 1880.

“41 of 500 stocks. Those 41 companies were 48% of the S&P's 500 cap about two weeks ago. It's a little bit less today. Maybe it's about 46% right now…”—

Bitcoin Decoupling — Bitcoin’s correlations with other assets are beginning to fracture. The Clarity Act was described as more important for stablecoins and broader crypto innovation than for Bitcoin itself.

“Correlations are starting to fracture…”—

FORECASTS

Copper Divergence — Copper has underperformed the S&P 500 since 2023 despite expectations of AI-related demand. On the cited day, copper fell 2.7% while the Nasdaq fell 1.6%.

“Copper has been tracking up. People say that's the main reason for demand for copper, but it's been a complete dud versus the S&P 500 now since 2023…”—

Crypto Bear Case — One speaker argues that Bitcoin and the broader crypto market remain vulnerable because the sector is oversupplied, overhyped, and dependent on equities. He expects a further purge before a lower-price buying opportunity.

“I just look at this space is just a bare market. The whole space is over supplied. It's overhyped…”—

Technical Setup — One speaker sees Bitcoin’s move above its 200-day moving average as the beginning of a potentially large move. A lower high and failure at the 50-week moving average would support the bearish case, while a higher high above that average would challenge it.

“We were in a bare market. We were below the 200 day moving average. It was pointed downward…”—

Diesel Supply Shock

The panel links surging diesel prices to Ukrainian attacks on Russian refineries, reduced European supply, US export demand, and politically motivated refinery decisions.

Fed Hike Expectations

Participants debate whether the Federal Reserve will raise rates despite oil-driven inflation, weak growth effects, and markets already pricing a high probability of a hike.

Persistent Inflation Regime

Jim argues that long-term yields signal two years of incorrect policy and that deglobalization, tariffs, services inflation, and energy costs have ended the low-inflation era.

Fair Value Interest Rates

The panel examines how rates should relate to nominal economic growth, with Jim defending higher borrowing costs while others warn about deficits and fiscal strain.

Financial Repression Risks

Speakers clash over whether suppressing rates could contain the fiscal trap, with Jim warning that financial repression would cause bond-market losses and higher yields.

AI Defies Higher Rates

Jordy argues that higher rates will not slow AI infrastructure spending because leading companies have strong margins, balance sheets, and unusually powerful innovation dynamics.

AI Regulation And Capture

The panel considers AI safety proposals, Chinese competition, open-source transparency, and whether incumbent companies are using regulation to protect an emerging oligopoly.

AI Bubble And Market Breadth

Mike describes AI as both a productivity boom and a potential bubble, while highlighting political narratives, concentrated valuations, copper weakness, and rising volatility risks.

Two Stock Markets

Jim explains that AI-related companies and the rest of the S&P 500 are moving like separate markets, echoing historical concentration in railroad stocks.

Anthropic IPO Risks

The panel questions whether Anthropic can proceed with its IPO amid urgent capital needs, compute disadvantages, safety controversies, disclosure demands, and potentially enormous liability.

Bitcoin And AI Agents

Jordy presents Bitcoin as a potential beneficiary of AI-driven disruption, arguing that blockchain-based financial guardrails may become essential for autonomous agents.

Bitcoin Adoption Thesis

Jordy distinguishes the next Bitcoin move from ETF-driven speculation, emphasizing tokenization, network effects, agentic finance, and adoption by people outside wealthy financial centers.

Bitcoin Purge Scenario

Mike argues that Bitcoin remains a volatile, stock-correlated asset in an oversupplied crypto market and expects a broader purge before a more attractive buying opportunity.

Tokenization Versus Valuation

Jordy maintains that AI will disrupt corporate growth and valuation models while tokenization expands, potentially allowing Bitcoin to outperform stocks despite losing crypto-market share.

Bitcoin Technical Test

The speakers debate whether Bitcoin’s rebound near $78,000 is a bull-market consolidation or a bear-market rally, focusing on moving averages, volatility, and macro correlations.

DeFi And Global Adoption

Jim argues that Bitcoin needs a mature decentralized-finance ecosystem and broader adoption across emerging markets, where stablecoins already function as practical alternatives to failing fiat currencies.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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