PodcastThe Real Investment ShowLance Roberts

10-8-26 Is the Term Premium Misleading the Fed?

The discussion weighs the uncertain term premium against other drivers of Treasury yields, with Michael and Lance offering different estimates and arguing that yields are too high. It also examines signs of pressure on household finances, including rising credit use, low savings, and withdrawals from investment accounts, alongside low consumer sentiment. Market themes include a high bar for earnings, rate-sensitive stocks, and the possibility of broader participation if yields ease; Lance also cautions that the S&P 500’s new highs are not a confirmed breakout.

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Key Takeaways

Household spending support looks increasingly constrained: consumer credit has accelerated and people across income brackets are drawing from investment accounts, while the savings rate is near a 50-year low. Michael also says sentiment measures are deeply depressed but have little correlation with spending, and notes that PCE is running above what his 19-point consumer health index indicates.

The speakers disagree on the term premium—Lance estimates about 1%, while Michael puts it near 70 basis points—and Michael cautions that it is an uncertain measure with no single correct calculation. He argues that using it to guide Fed policy could lead to a mistake, and says yields could fall further if the Iran war ends and oil-related inflation expectations decline by about 50 basis points.

Lance frames Treasury yields as an opportunity-cost comparison: a 10-year yield of 5.2% looks less attractive against an assumed 10%–15% stock return, but he estimates that at 40 times earnings, historical decade-ahead equity returns would range from -2% to +2%, with 3% inflation. He says the Treasury yield in that example comes close to covering opportunity and inflation costs, consistent with his view that bond pricing depends on repayment risk and whether interest income outpaces inflation and growth.

ECONOMY

Term Premium Debate — Michael says Lori Logan argued that the federal funds rate should be about 50 basis points higher, citing inflation above the Fed’s 2% goal and a healthy labor market. He says the term premium is an uncertain estimate with no single correct calculation, and argues that using it to guide policy could set the Fed up for a mistake.

“points higher. Like, okay, you know, everyone has their opinion…”—

Credit Growth — Consumer credit creation rose sharply from the beginning of the year after remaining relatively stable through much of 2024 and 2025. The speakers say it remains low as a share of GDP, but has trended upward for roughly six to nine months and is growing faster than the economy.

“And this has had a very very sharp increase really since the beginning of this year…”—

Consumer Sentiment — Michael says consumer sentiment has almost no correlation with how much consumers spend. The University of Michigan measure is at its lowest recorded level, while Conference Board consumer confidence is around 2014 lows.

“One of them was sentiment. And interestingly, what I found was that sentiment has almost no correlation with the amount of money we spent. Right…”—

MARKETS

Earnings Bar — Lance reports that 72 companies had reported or guided higher, compared with 44 guiding lower—a record before earnings season began. He says that sets a high bar for upcoming results.

“As we talked about before, that's unusual. Normally, we're cutting estimates going into earning season as you know kind of over optimism starts to meet up with reality…”—

Oil and Yields — Oil was up about $3 a barrel that morning, weighing on markets. Higher yields ahead of a bond auction were also pressuring stocks.

“Same thing this morning…”—

Bond Fundamentals — Lance says bond pricing is driven primarily by fundamentals: lenders assess repayment risk and whether interest income will outpace inflation and economic growth. He contrasts this with stock prices, which he describes as more sentiment-driven.

“But with the bond market, it is it is primarily driven by fundamentals. If I'm going to loan Michael money today, I need to factor in a couple of things…”—

FORECASTS

S&P 500 Support — Lance cautions that the S&P 500’s move to new highs is not a confirmed breakout and could reverse into its prior consolidation range. He identifies the 20- and 50-day moving averages as potential support during a short-term pullback.

“It looks like and we talked about yesterday that the breakout to new highs to be careful of that because until that is confirmed then we don't really have a…”—

Midterm Returns — Lance cites an average fourth-quarter market return of about 6.6% in 16 of 19 midterm election years, while cautioning that the historical pattern is not guaranteed.

“And as we've talked about before in midterm election years, the average return for the fourth quarter is about 6.6%. that occurs 16 out of 19 midterm election years…”—

Small-Cap Rotation — Lance says small- and mid-cap stocks weakened after a brief rebound as rates rose. He argues that a pullback in rates after the bond auction could support rotation into other market areas and potentially broaden participation in the fourth quarter.

“Yesterday we were kind of back to weakness in small caps and midcaps after after a brief little pop higher, but that was due to interest rates…”—

INTRO

Lance opens with a playful discussion of possible show merchandise before introducing the Real Investment Show and its financial-information mission.

Earnings Season & Optimistic Guidance

Lance says earnings expectations have risen unusually going into the season, with more companies guiding higher than lower and a high bar for upcoming reports.

Bond Auctions & Interest Rate Dynamics

Lance describes strong demand at the 10-year Treasury auction and explains how bond-auction pressure, oil prices, and yields are influencing stocks.

Markets Sitting at all-time highs...

Lance cautions that the S&P 500's brief record high is not a confirmed breakout and could give way to a retest of clustered moving-average support.

Earnings Announcements Should Help Support Markets

Lance expects earnings reports and upbeat guidance to offer market support, while warning that the market is overbought and has mostly consolidated for months.

Election Year Market Performance

Lance notes that midterm-election fourth quarters have historically tended to perform well, but stresses that the pattern is not guaranteed.

Commentary on Laurie Logan Commentary

Michael and Lance examine Dallas Fed President Lorie Logan's case for higher rates and question relying on the uncertain term premium to guide Fed policy.

What is the Term Premium - Decomposes the Yield

Michael explains that the term premium is an imprecise estimate of the yield component not explained by expected short-term rates and other fundamentals.

Constraints to Yields - What Goes Into a 10-Year Yield (chart)

Lance breaks down Treasury yields into inflation compensation, real rates, and term premium, arguing that market supply and demand constrain the premium.

Three Fed Models (chart) Set the Fed up for a Mistake

Michael and Lance compare their term-premium estimates with three Fed models and find a wide range that makes the measure an unreliable policy compass.

When you buy bonds, you are the lender

Michael and Lance warn that treating uncertain term-premium estimates as grounds for rate decisions could lead the Fed into a policy mistake.

Why Do We Like Bonds Today?

Lance explains that bond buyers effectively lend money and should assess inflation, credit risk, expected growth, and the opportunity cost of other investments.

Preview: 5% Bond Yields?

Michael and Lance argue that Treasury yields appear roughly 75 to 100 basis points too high, while noting that future inflation expectations also matter.

Consumer Credit Creation: How Money is Lent into Existence (chart)

Lance previews an article explaining 5% bond yields, how bond pricing works, and how investors might use bonds in a portfolio.

Consumer Health Index (chart)

Lance says rising consumer credit creation is adding money to the economy and helping sustain spending despite weak consumer sentiment.

Shares of Individuals Making Net Withdrawals from Investment Accounts (chart)

Michael describes a consumer-health index built from household data and says sentiment has little relationship to actual spending in his analysis.

Should taxes on Bond interest be eliminated? (Tweet)

Lance and Michael note record-low consumer sentiment readings, while discussing the political and economic factors behind households' pessimism.

No One is Talking About the US Dollar

Michael's index suggests consumer spending is stronger than underlying household conditions imply, with low savings and other forces helping explain the gap.

Why You Should Buy a House now

Michael points to population growth, rising credit, government transfers, and stock-market wealth as supports for consumer spending.

Winter is Coming

Lance and Michael observe that people across income groups are withdrawing from investment accounts, adding to credit use to maintain spending and signaling vulnerability.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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