PodcastReinvent MoneyMarlo Oaks

Utah’s Treasurer Marlo Oaks on Buying Gold, Dollar Erosion, Woke Investing & Programmable Money

Oaks argues that dollar erosion and inflation can weaken purchasing power, particularly for people on fixed or low incomes, and presents physical precious metals as a potential alternative and diversifier. He discusses Utah's authority to allocate up to 10% of rainy-day funds to metals, the state's gold purchase, and how vendors could use metal electronically. He also criticizes ESG investing and describes Utah's approach to borrowing, programmable-money guardrails, and maintaining access to nonprogrammable options.

GoldPrecious MetalsInflationInvestment StrategyMonetary PolicyFinancial Regulation

Preview · 12 more points in the app

Read the Full Summary

Key Takeaways

Oaks argues that ESG can undermine individual choice when it shifts from environmental and worker criteria toward fossil-fuel exclusions and DEI standards, and he warns that defaulting 401(k) plans into ESG funds could sharply increase assets managed under those strategies because many people feel overwhelmed by investment decisions.

Oaks says Utah’s rainy-day funds lost purchasing power when invested in a short-term money-market fund that did not keep pace with inflation in 2023–2024; HB306 now allows up to 10% of those funds to be invested in physical precious metals. He says physical metals offer a different risk profile from traditional financial assets, while the host reported that Utah bought more than 38,000 troy ounces of gold in 2024, worth about $164 million at the time.

Oaks argues that dollar erosion disproportionately hurts people on fixed or low incomes and that precious metals could offer another way to protect purchasing power, noting that gold has tended to keep pace with inflation. He also says IRS treatment of gold and silver as collectibles can make using them as money onerous because selling them creates a taxable event.

Oaks says Utah’s law sets guardrails for programmable money, including stablecoins and tokenized bank deposits, stocks, and bonds, while the state plans to refine the law without stifling innovation. He also agrees that non-programmable options such as cash and ordinary bank accounts should remain available.

GEO-POLITICS

ESG Criticism — Oaks argues that pressuring market participants to adopt common views through ESG threatens a free market built on individual choices. He says ESG criteria shifted from environmental records and worker treatment toward excluding fossil fuels and applying DEI standards, which he views as less constructive when they disregard merit or job ability.

“or you know so to me it's it is a direct threat to a free market system where it's really designed to be bottom up individuals making individual choices and…”—

Utah ESG Scores — Oaks says Utah has maintained a triple-A rating from the three major credit agencies since S&P Global first rated the state in 1968. He says a separate ESG score could have affected Utah's ability to borrow at the lowest rates. S&P Global stopped issuing separate ESG scores a year after Utah officials and its congressional delegation objected.

“And I had been talking about Utah's credit rating in the months prior to receiving that email that we have the best credit rating in the world…”—

Precious-Metals Law — Oaks says Utah's HB306 allows the state treasurer to invest up to 10% of rainy-day funds in physical precious metals. The Public Treasurers Investment Fund was ruled out because gold's volatility was unsuitable for a fund that maintains a stable $1 share price.

“So the law I think it was HB306 allowed the state treasurer to invest up to 10% of the rainy day funds in physical precious metals…”—

TECHNOLOGY

Nonprogrammable Options — Oaks agrees that nonprogrammable alternatives, including cash and ordinary bank accounts, should remain available alongside programmable money.

“Right. So basically also allowing for non-programmable alternatives such as cash or ordinary bank accounts, right? Yes, that's right.”—

ECONOMY

Debt And Dollar — Oaks says unprecedented debt levels are accompanied by dollar erosion, which he argues disproportionately harms people least able to afford it.

“I think it's important to give people options and we are seeing you know unprecedented debt levels…”—

Utah Borrowing — Oaks says Utah typically borrows for no more than 15 years, compared with 20 to 30 years for many states. He says Utah generally borrows less and pays off its debt more quickly.

“And so we typically don't borrow beyond 15 years. I know a lot of states will go out 20 30 years when they borrow…”—

ESG 401(k) Defaults — Oaks warns that making an ESG fund the default option in 401(k) plans could sharply increase assets managed under ESG strategies. He says defaults matter because many people feel overwhelmed by investment decisions.

“that is what really got my attention because most people are overwhelmed by investment decisions in their 401k…”—

MARKETS

Treasury Exposure — The host says 28% of the Public Treasurers Investment Fund is invested in U.S. Treasuries and asks about their safety given federal deficits. Oaks hopes that risk is never tested, calls Treasuries foundational to markets, and says he sees few attractive alternatives.

“[7:35] 28% is invested in US treasuries. How safe is that at this point given the deficits of Uncle Sam? Well, that's that's a great question…”—

Physical-Metal Allocation — Oaks says he advocated investing 10% of Utah's rainy-day funds in physical precious metals. He argues that physical ownership has a different risk profile and avoids the counterparty risk of relying on a government or corporation to repay a traditional financial asset. He says Utah began building the position as gold started to rise.

“And so all these things kind of came together and I became a strong advocate for investing taking 10% of our those funds and investing it in in physical precious…”—

Public Investment Fund — Oaks says Utah's Public Treasurers Investment Fund pools money from state and local public entities, including cities, counties, special districts, and public universities. He describes it as a short-term, highly liquid vehicle invested in high-quality securities, including Treasuries, agencies, and corporate debt rated single-A or higher.

“So, so it's important to note that that money includes not just state assets but also cities and counties and spe special districts, even public universities…”—

Intro: Utah’s treasurer on money, risk, and power

Paul introduces Utah Treasurer Marlo Oaks and frames the discussion around public finance, precious metals, ESG investing, and monetary choice; Oaks joins after brief greetings and travel-related banter.

How Utah invests $37B and why the state stays conservative

Oaks says Utah keeps borrowing conservative by limiting debt terms, matching borrowing to long-lived infrastructure, and paying debt off quickly; the $37 billion public investment fund pools short-term public money in liquid, high-quality securities.

Are U.S. Treasuries still safe?

Oaks says Treasuries remain difficult to replace because they are liquid and foundational to markets, while acknowledging uncertainty around federal deficits; he distinguishes Utah’s short-term investment fund from long-horizon pension portfolios.

Why he rejects ESG and “woke” investing

Oaks argues ESG can impose centralized political preferences on markets, misallocate capital, and politicize borrowing costs; he describes Utah’s effort to oppose separate ESG credit scores while emphasizing economically material credit risks.

Why Utah bought physical gold for its rainy-day fund

Oaks says Utah used a law permitting up to 10% of rainy-day funds in physical precious metals to diversify against inflation and downturn risks, citing gold’s historical behavior, purchasing-power protection, and lack of counterparty risk.

Making gold and silver money again

Oaks describes Utah’s legal-tender recognition, local goldback use, and a new option for state vendors to receive value through electronic gold or silver platforms; he presents metals as an additional way to store value, not a dollar replacement.

The threat of programmable money

Oaks says Utah’s programmable-money law establishes guardrails rather than blocking innovation, aiming to protect people from potential harms while preserving access to nonprogrammable choices such as cash and ordinary bank accounts.

Related Episodes

Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

Our Commentary · Request Removal