PodcastAdam Taggart | Thoughtful Money®Michael Lebowitz

Bonds To Reverse Soon As Yields Approach 'Line In The Sand'? | Michael Lebowitz

Lebowitz argues that underlying inflation is near pre-Iran-war levels, while employment and broader growth appear weaker than headline data suggest. He sees tariffs and an Iran-related supply shock as potentially fading sources of inflation, but says deficits and AI-related borrowing could continue pressuring bonds. With the 10-year Treasury yield approaching a potential 5% line in the sand, he favors patience and expects bond yields to trend lower over the next couple of years, while warning that richly valued equities could deliver roughly zero returns over the next decade.

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Key Takeaways

Lebowitz argues that underlying inflation remains relatively contained, citing core CPI at 2.5%, trimmed-mean PCE at 2.3%, and breakeven expectations near 2.4% to 2.5%, while recent inflation pressure has largely reflected tariffs and an Iran-related supply shock. He says another Fed hike could be a policy mistake because inflation does not justify current interest-rate levels, although it remains above the Fed’s 2% objective.

The episode presents a weakening-growth backdrop: Lebowitz questions the latest employment report because of revisions and weak confirmation from ADP and JOLTS, and says growth may be flat to negative excluding AI-related activity. At the same time, rising intermediate- and long-term rates have already lifted auto-loan, credit-card, mortgage, and corporate borrowing costs by roughly 50 to 75 basis points, with effects potentially appearing over three to nine months.

AI could eventually support growth and disinflation, but its near-term economic effects may be inflationary because of higher memory-chip prices and massive data-center construction. AI-related borrowing by hyperscalers, combined with broader fiscal deficits, could also increase demand for debt and equity financing and pressure the bond market.

Lebowitz distinguishes bond fundamentals from market narratives: inflation expectations typically influence yields, but events such as credit downgrades can temporarily push yields higher even when long-run fundamentals suggest yields are already elevated. The host says yields are still moving higher, while Lebowitz’s default outlook is for yields to trend lower over the next couple of years toward the economy’s real growth rate.

TECHNOLOGY

AI Inflation — AI could eventually generate economic growth alongside disinflation, but its near-term effects may be inflationary because of higher memory-chip prices and massive data-center construction. The timing of any disinflationary benefits remains uncertain.

“Right now, some of it is more inflationary, higher memory chips like we talked about…”—

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ECONOMY

Underlying Inflation — Lebowitz argues that underlying inflation remains close to pre-Iran-war levels. He cites core CPI at 2.5%, trimmed-mean PCE at 2.3%, and breakeven inflation expectations at roughly 2.4% to 2.5%. He says inflation itself does not warrant current interest-rate levels.

“Core CPI is 2.5%. We know energy prices have shot up and the prices of some other goods have gone up because of the Iran war…”—

Employment Weakness — Lebowitz questions the latest employment report because of large revisions and weak confirmation from ADP and JOLTS. He also says economic growth has been weak and may be flat to negative when AI-related activity is excluded.

“Employment, we had a great employment report last Friday, but we've seen massive revisions. So trust it all you want…”—

Deficits And Debt — Fiscal deficits and AI-related borrowing can pressure the bond market. Larger deficits require more debt issuance, while hyperscalers raising capital beyond free cash flow add demand for debt and equity financing.

“Deficits. Right? That's we see a story about high deficits every day. The greater your deficits, the more debt you have to issue…”—

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MARKETS

Bond Narratives — Lebowitz distinguishes between bond fundamentals, which historically drive yields, and narratives that can temporarily separate yields from those fundamentals. Inflation expectations generally correlate with yields, but narratives such as credit downgrades can push yields higher even when long-run fundamentals suggest yields are already too high.

“So kind of 1 of our themes is that there's bond fundamentals and there's bond narratives. And at the end of the day, historically, fundamentals drive yield…”—

Bond Optionality — With bond yields near 5%, investors are paid to wait while retaining potential upside if yields fall. A five-year bond yielding 5% could be held to maturity for income or sold at a gain if yields decline and stocks fall, creating an opportunity to redeploy into equities.

“But the difference here, sorry to interject, is the difference this time is you're getting paid to wait. You're getting paid near 5%…”—

Institutional Demand — Institutional investors such as insurers, pension funds, and endowments may support Treasury yields near 5% by incrementally locking in attractive asset-liability returns. Strong corporate bonds already yield above 5% because of their spread over Treasuries, though they carry additional risk.

“I think the market may step in at 5% before central planners…”—

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FORECASTS

Five Percent Ceiling — Lebowitz views a 5% 10-year Treasury yield as a potential near-term line in the sand for the economy, stocks, the Treasury, and possibly the Federal Reserve. Economic or equity-market weakness could push yields lower, although a rapid decline would likely require a significant event.

“I do think that 10 year bond yields at 5% is potentially a line in the sand for both the economy, the stock market, and definitely the treasury, and possibly…”—

Bonds Versus Equities — Lebowitz argues that bond returns could improve after a prolonged period of poor performance, while richly valued equities face weak long-term prospects. He cites a CAPE ratio near 41 as implying roughly zero equity returns over the next 10 years.

“So right now, cape is sitting at like 41, implying that returns for the next 10 years are going to be 0…”—

Treasury Timing — Lebowitz would rather buy the 10-year Treasury around 4.5% once there is greater confidence that yields are falling toward 2.5% than buy at 5% while yields may still be rising. If the Fed does nothing and markets view that as weakness on inflation, the 10-year yield could still reach 5%.

“I think I'd rather be at a point where we buy it, Let's just hypothetically say the tenure at 4 50 versus 5%, but a lot more confidence that we're…”—

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Bond Yield Setup

Lebowitz distinguishes bond fundamentals from short-term narratives and explains why recent yield increases may not reflect inflation, employment, or growth fundamentals.

Inflation And Deficits

Lebowitz argues underlying inflation is near prewar levels, while weak growth, deficits, AI borrowing, and market narratives continue pressuring Treasury yields.

Bond Market Opportunity

The guests discuss the potential value of bonds near 5% yields, emphasizing patient investors, institutional demand, income, and the option to buy risk assets later.

Fed Policy Risk

Lebowitz questions the Fed’s hawkish inflation messaging, warns that rate hikes could be a policy mistake, and expects the yield curve to flatten.

Retirement Portfolio Planning

The discussion turns to retirement goals, fixed-income allocation, financial planning software, and using required returns rather than equity benchmarks to guide portfolios.

Closing Remarks

Taggart thanks Lebowitz, promotes the channel and conference, and closes with a brief unrelated promotional clip.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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