PodcastThe Meb Faber ShowDirk Willer

It's a Bubble. So Why Is Citi's Dirk Willer Buying?

Willer sees the market as being in bubble territory by his price-based measure, but says the Fed is not close to overtightening and describes several signals investors could use to assess risk and timing. He discusses bond volatility, liquidity, global market drivers, and opportunities and risks across currencies, regions, and commodities. A market peak next year is not his base case, but he identifies it as the key macro risk, with a sharp Fed pivot and higher gold possible if it occurs.

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Key Takeaways

Willer defines a bubble as an asset trading more than two standard deviations above its long-term real trend and says the market crossed that threshold around the middle of last year. With that indicator on, he says a breakdown in four of the S&P’s seven largest names could provide an earlier exit signal than waiting for the index to fall below its 200-day moving average; excess compute capacity is another potential timing signal, though his analysts do not think overcapacity is near.

Willer argues that a bubble burst could trigger a recession larger than the one after the 2000 bubble, pointing to equity-market capitalization rising from just over 100% of GDP in 2000 to 240%. In that scenario, he expects the Fed to change direction and cut rates sharply, while he says credit could hedge the recession because it would underperform, potentially at limited cost given tight spreads and ample supply.

Willer says the S&P typically pulls back around the first Fed hike but tends to react again near the last hike, when the Fed overtightens; he argues the Fed is not close to that point. He also says equities are more sensitive to volatility in the bond sell-off than to the level of rates itself, and identifies excessive Treasury-market volatility, measured by the MOVE Index, as a point when equities usually start to care.

Willer says the Treasury could shorten the duration of new issuance by shifting from coupons to T-bills, though heavy bill issuance could prompt a Fed response if it strains front-end or repo markets; a Treasury General Account drawdown during a debt-ceiling debate could create room for more bills. He says the Treasury still has options to stabilize the long end, but suggests intervention may be easier during a panic than when markets are orderly.

ECONOMY

Treasury Issuance — Willer says the Treasury could use the November refinancing statement to issue fewer coupons and more T-bills, shortening the duration it puts into the market. More T-bill issuance could prompt a Fed response if it strains front-end or repo markets. During a debt-ceiling debate, a Treasury General Account drawdown could also allow more T-bill sales without causing problems.

“So, so the Treasury could use the November refinancing to really again lower the duration of what they push into the market and in the 20 23 buyer strike that…”—

MARKETS

Fed Hike Cycle — Willer says the S&P typically pulls back around the first Fed hike, then tends to stop reacting until the last hike, when the Fed overtightens. The first and last hikes rarely coincide; he cites 1997, amid the Russian and Asian crises, as an exception. He argues the Fed is not close to overtightening.

“And right now, you know, the Fed hike once, right? I mean, the first Fed hike is usually not a problem. The last Fed hike is a problem…”—

Bubble Definition — Willer defines a bubble as an asset rising more than two standard deviations above its long-term real trend. By that price-based definition, the market entered bubble territory around the middle of last year. The measure can capture bubbles reflected in earnings or valuation, he says, and warns that scarcity-driven over-ordering can inflate projected earnings.

“bubble, right?…”—

Liquidity Withdrawal — Willer says withdrawing liquidity can help end a bubble. He cites 2000, when the Fed withdrew liquidity after adding it to address Y2K, as an important factor in the market's March peak.

“And that is an important reason why Nasdaq went up 50% in one quarter in Q4 of 99. And then they withdrew that liquidity in in Q1…”—

FORECASTS

Compute Capacity — Willer suggests stocks could peak six to nine months before compute fundamentals peak, making excess compute capacity a potential timing signal. He says it is difficult to identify when capacity is reached, and his fundamental analysts do not think the market is close to compute overcapacity.

“Best would be to come up with a date when we get over capacity in compute and then say okay stocks maybe peak six to nine months before fundamentals peak.”—

Real Yield Appeal — Willer says 30-year real yields of about 3.3% may interest long-term investors, particularly given his view that equities could suffer a meaningful setback within roughly five years. He cautions that valuation offers little guidance for forecasting equity-market performance over the next year.

“I think a lot depends on your time horizon, right? If you so you get what 3.3% or something real yields in the 30-year…”—

Gold Outlook — Willer says U.S. rates are the key short-term driver of gold, making a hawkish Fed and a potential hiking cycle near-term headwinds. He sees a longer-term bull case if China continues buying gold to reduce its dollar holdings, and says gold could peak when the PBOC is done buying.

“So, in the short term, rates is almost all all that matters…”—

Dirk Willer

Willer defines a bubble using price performance relative to its long-term real trend, says U.S. markets entered bubble territory in 2025, and advises investors to stay invested but avoid leverage and consider hedges.

Trading Bubbles and Fed Liquidity

Willer says liquidity withdrawals and late-cycle Fed hikes can end a bubble, but the Fed is not far enough along to threaten markets; subdued sentiment and narrow breadth also suggest the run may continue.

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The Fed Cycle and Bond Timing

Willer’s shadow-rate measure indicates a hawkish Fed, but he says it is not close to overtightening; equities typically weather early hikes, while bond timing depends on how many hikes remain.

Treasury Supply and Treasury Myths

Willer attributes rising long-term Treasury yields mainly to stronger real growth expectations, not lost Fed credibility or fiscal panic, and says the Treasury retains tools to manage issuance and market liquidity.

Dollar Strength and Global Macro

Willer’s currency framework currently favors the dollar, supported by U.S. equity outperformance, relative rates, and oil-linked terms of trade, while European policy and energy risks create headwinds.

Brazil, Asia, and China

Willer favors Brazil for its potential policy shift, lower rates, and depressed investor sentiment; he likes AI-linked Korea and Taiwan but sees Europe as vulnerable and China’s equity market as hard to trade.

Sponsor: Meb Faber

Meb Faber promotes his book, Investing in America, describing its historical account of U.S. market growth and its collection of charts and investor quotations.

Gold, Copper, and Macro Signals

Willer sees gold’s long-term case in central-bank diversification but says near-term real rates matter; he views bonds as increasingly under-owned, explains TIPS’ rate sensitivity, and remains positive on copper.

Bubble Indicators and Hedging

Willer presents the Generals and Pulse indicators as tools for detecting bubble weakness and short-term equity risk, discusses scenario-specific hedges, and identifies an early market peak next year as the key macro risk.

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Important Disclaimers

Not Investment Advice: For education only — not financial, tax or legal advice.

AI-Generated: Made by AI from source transcripts and may contain errors.

No Guarantees: Past performance does not predict future results; investing carries risk.

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